Curse

LockerLoad · Dec 06, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

From your inability to express yourself and your reliance on ad-hominem attacks I'll assume that you really have no idea how to articulate SPECIFICALLY how warriors are more powerful now than at prophecies release(which was btw the contested claim).

Please, at least appear to try to answer the question. Perhaps a review your own reading comprehension is in order.

Your agreement that warriors cunning sucks just reinforces my position, thanks for the help.

Magikarp said: "a good warrior times his attacks, carries the motherload of utility skills, and is capable of more deadly, constant, instantaneous spikes and pressuring skills, than any other class in the game. dervishes lack team based, or even single target utility outside of a few crippling moves, in which are all very conditional for the most part, minus a few. warriors have an extremely large variation to their play styles and fighting capabilities, far beyond a derv, and a sin is just out of the question in the particular case."

Now substitute Ranger for Warrior in that paragraph and tell me if it makes any less sense.

FFS think about what you type before hitting the enter key

MercenaryK · Dec 06, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

You are correct, I should have said that warriors are the only melee class w/o condition management.

Dervish have avatar of Melandru.

BTW I don't unload attack skills on a player I know is bocking.... so what exactly was your point? Just overstating the obvious?

My point was that you seemed to not understand that the simple solution to enchantment blocking is to simply switch targets. I figured you could be new to warriors and simple counters just boggle your mind to the warrior's entire effectiveness.

Bowstring Badass · Dec 06, 2007, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

You forgot the most important one.
Owning face harder than any other class uncontested ever since day 1.

OP: Basically... Times have changed, aye. Passive defense, blocks, melee shutdown has become stronger over the years.
But the fact remains, warriors are the scariest damage dealing class in the game. Listen to the advice here, and you'll be fine. And don't worry if you find yourself blind, or needing a healer - it's a team game. The rest of the party keeps you healthy or shuts down the enemy, you tear stuff to pieces.

Sad but true. Alex brings up the most valid point. Warriors have been there since day1 and been strong ever since. Last time I looked before nightfall came out 2 warriors were the main spike that needed 1 support but used more. But the melee defense just made people swap....

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Magikarp said: "a good warrior times his attacks, carries the motherload of utility skills, and is capable of more deadly, constant, instantaneous spikes and pressuring skills, than any other class in the game. dervishes lack team based, or even single target utility outside of a few crippling moves, in which are all very conditional for the most part, minus a few. warriors have an extremely large variation to their play styles and fighting capabilities, far beyond a derv, and a sin is just out of the question in the particular case."

Now substitute Ranger for Warrior in that paragraph and tell me if it makes any less sense.

Just saying, but...

It makes a lot less sense if you sub in Ranger.

Rangers are not "capable of more deadly, constant, instantaneous spikes and pressuring skills, than any other class in the game".

And I'll stay out of the argument.

LockerLoad · Dec 06, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

More ad-hominems and a false equivalency fallacy falsely attributed to me. You have outdone yourself Yum.

I'll break it down for you since you don't seem to get it.

Name just one skill or update that makes warriors more powerfull, just one.

I guess you're talking about PVE, seeing as shock axe and hammer kd warriors are still dominant in PVP.

I'm waiting

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Stop with the personal attacks. I don't particularly like deleting posts or closing threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

I guess you're talking about PVE, seeing as shock axe and hammer kd warriors are still dominant in PVP.

They ARE talking about PvP, by the way.

In which case, the Warrior in PvE is able to chain Dragon Slash for 2/3 of the time, as well as be able to provide constant SY! spam, etc, etc, etc.

yum · Dec 06, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Name just one skill or update that makes warriors more powerfull, just one.

what?.....Dude, don't you realize that they are very balanced from the beginning?

Don't you see that your argument are irrelavant? If they don't buff 1 class, it means the class is perfectly fine.

First, you implied that warrior sux coz Cunning sux.

Then you asked me for a skill that made warriors "more" powerful. I see your logic now (lol)

Well, if you really want to know. This is one of many skills:

[skill]Frenzy[/skill]

And BTW, you said that

Quote:

seeing as shock axe and hammer kd warriors are still dominant in PVP.

glad that you see it, so?

Savio · Dec 06, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Flail, Enraging Charge, "For Great Justice!", Enduring Harmony, Brawling Headbutt, "Save Yourselves!", Whirlwind Attack, other imbalanced PvE crap.

@LightningHell: It's not going to get better, considering the title of this thread.

Magikarp · Dec 06, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

More ad-hominems and a false equivalency fallacy falsely attributed to me. You have outdone yourself Yum.

I'll break it down for you since you don't seem to get it.

Name just one skill or update that makes warriors more powerfull, just one.

I guess you're talking about PVE, seeing as shock axe and hammer kd warriors are still dominant in PVP.

I'm waiting

i, again, posted exactly how warriors have not only stayed strong through the ages, but have only got better. skills have been added to the game to simply make them even better. i stated this quite evidently in the first post, not to mention some simple, mainstream builds that the class uses to continuosly dominate the meta of gws.

to put it bluntly on how effective the warrior class is...

the game had to change, so that warriors could be balanced.

static defense, and passive blocking has become part of our meta SIMPLY because of the high contrast of damage caused primarily by the warriors in your face design, constant pressure, and active, uncondtional spikes.

i dont know how much more totally clear on how effective and powerful the class is other than that. watch gvg/ha if you want to look for yourself kid. and just so you stop complaining, like an elementary school teacher, i'll point out a few updates since prophecies like you asked, on how the warrior has become better.

skills that have been around that synergize better than ever:
backbreaker
rush
shock
prot strike

skills added after proph that simply made them even better:
frenzy
bulls strike
dis chop
ag chop
crit chop
crip slash
dslash
wy!
sy!
brawling
triple
devastating
pulverizing
fgj!

and it simply goes on and on. i'm not going to not only waste my time with you, but waste my time on this dead thread.

i hear the keys jingling in the distance...

LightningHell · Dec 06, 2007, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

skills that have been around that synergize better than ever:
backbreaker
rush
shock
prot strike

skills added after proph that simply made them even better:
frenzy
bulls strike
dis chop
ag chop
crit chop
crip slash
dslash
wy!
sy!
brawling
triple
devastating
pulverizing
fgj!

Uh....

Let's see....

Out of your list, Frenzy, Bull's Strike, Triple Chop, Devastating Blow, and For Great Justice! have always been in play since Prophecies.

ShadowsRequiem · Dec 06, 2007, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Uh....

Let's see....

Out of your list, Frenzy, Bull's Strike, Triple Chop, Devastating Blow, and For Great Justice! have always been in play since Prophecies.

triple chop?

you might want to relook at your list too.

arcady · Dec 06, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

My opinion in all of this is that warriors are both very potent and very weak.

That is to say, every class in this game is very effective in the hands of someone who knows how to play it, even a Mesmer in PvE (which I personally find to be extremely potent in PvE - I have 13 toons, and the only class I don't have a primary toon for is Assassin).

The big problem with warriors in GW is the same problem hunters have in WoW - they are the noob class.

I see so many bad warrior builds when I PUG that it is just amazing. I've taken to seeing them as wandering hit points. The average warrior in PvE is there to mitigate some of the damage the actual members of the PUg are taking.

But... when a warrior with a decent build pops in, it is an easy class to play well, and the power of the PUG spikes up dramatically.

All it really takes to play well as a warrior is to know how to manage aggro such that it is on you as much as possible, but that you only draw as little of it as possible. That is to say, pull it to you, but don't overpull so much that some of it can get bored and go kill the rest of your team.

What makes so many warriors ineffective is not the class - but how they get played and built.

So many bad warriors bring bars with half monk, elementalist, or ranger skills, and then have no skills to speed up their adrenaline gain or buff team defenses.

So many more over aggro and then complain when the team wipes. Either they think they are ineffective because they suffer so much caster shutdown, or they blame the rest of the team when the mob gets so overgrown that no one can manage it. But all too often that over-aggro is the fault of the warrior (unless you get really unlucky and get a monk who thinks he's a tank, like I did in a recent PUG - serious case of massive over aggro, I didn't even know there were that many NPCs in the entire Venta Cemetary mission, let alone that someone could pull them all at once and live just long enough for them to see the rest of us...).

I don't think the class has problems at all.

On the right build it is still very powerful. And when played by a player who keeps teamwork in mind, it avoids getting shut down and can manage to dish out all of its built-in smackdown.

LockerLoad · Dec 06, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Lightning hell beat me to it

although he slipped up on triple chop, that's new and perhaps along with dragon slash the best skill you mentioned. Still triple chop is just a pumped up cyclone axe. I used to trigger zealots fire with cyclone axe so forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

Disrupting chop is also a prophecies skill

Brawling headbutt is a deldrimor skill

Save yourself is a Kurzick skill

Which leaves:

agonizing chop is a conditional interrupt

Pulverizing smash is redundant and weak(do you know ne1 who uses it?)

Critical chop is great for Assassins with Warrior secondary...who like axe

and Crip slash is a 6 adrenaline cripple + bleed, hmmmm

sounds like warriors got a real shot in the arm huh?

I don't see any new skills that support your argument... Kid.

The ringing you hear isn't keys, it's the result of butting your head against the wall.

Bow out while you still can.

blue.rellik · Dec 06, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Brawling headbutt is a deldrimor skill

Which synergies very well with [skill]Steelfang Slash[/skill]

[quote]Save yourself is a Kurzick skill[/skill]

Which requires a warrior secondary/primary. Just because it's PvE doesn't mean it's not a warrior skill

Quote:

agonizing chop is a conditional interrupt

[skill]Eviscerate[/skill][skill]Executioner's Strike[/skill]

Quote:

Pulverizing smash is redundant and weak(do you know ne1 who uses it?)

Can be used in a [skill]Backbreaker[/skill] build

Quote:

Critical chop is great for Assassins with Warrior secondary...who like axe

Critical Shop used to be great but was nerfed.

Quote:

and Crip slash is a 6 adrenaline cripple + bleed, hmmmm

And so? How is a semi-spammable adrenaline crippling attack bad? It means the target will be limping around while your smash face and the bleeding not only is a great cover condition but sets up [skill]Gash[/skill]

[skill]sounds like warriors got a real shot in the arm huh?[/skill]

Hammer warriors got the biggest buff with [skill]Flail[/skill] and [skill]Enraging Charge[/skill]. There's also [skill]Steady Stance[/skill along with the two DBlows was tearing up HA a while ago especially with the "Fear Me" spam but then again it was nerfed

Magikarp · Dec 06, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

i put skills by memory. like i care if they were out of order, they're all still super efficient, and just the tip of the iceberg as to what warriors dish out.

Quote:

Disrupting chop is also a prophecies skill

Brawling headbutt is a deldrimor skill

Save yourself is a Kurzick skill

Which leaves:

agonizing chop is a conditional interrupt

Pulverizing smash is redundant and weak(do you know ne1 who uses it?)

Critical chop is great for Assassins with Warrior secondary...who like axe

and Crip slash is a 6 adrenaline cripple + bleed, hmmmm

sounds like warriors got a real shot in the arm huh?

I don't see any new skills that support your argument... Kid.

The ringing you hear isn't keys, it's the result of butting your head against the wall.

Bow out while you still can.

dis chop regardless, is a very efficient skill, as is ag chop, and while its conditional, its use is synergized with a spike involving a.. oh idk.. a DEEP WOUND.

brawling synergizes with more warrior bars than any other profession, as does SY! other than paragons, which the skill gets just about the same use and spammability.

critical chop is still great, and viable, and idk what game you play that crippling slash IS NOT GOOD. thats something thats simply hilarious.

pulverizing smash allows hammer warriors to tote KD chains that are faster and more spammable, in both pvp and pve, where losing all your adrenaline just gets annoying, and as for who uses it, tons of people.

i also left out other great skills, like flail, YAA!, and practially a slew of the active interupt skills warriors have.

what point are you trying to make? that warriors are the most consistantly variable and adaptable class in the game, let alone melee? are you supporting warriors in this argument, or do you just not know how to debate properly?

warriors always have, and ALWAYS will be a major backbone to the gws universe. even comparing them to dervs is a joke.

arcady · Dec 06, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

In about 90% of NM PvE, you can flip a coin over the choice of whether to bring a dervish or a warrior. Combine that with the ease dervishes have in doing runs, especially the popular runs like Droks, and it becomes easy to see why people extend the argument out and assume this means the Dervish is a replacement. That the logic breaks down after that, and the analysis doesn't actually manage to extend when put to examination is something many people never reach.

If your purpose in having a warrior is to have someone that keeps pressure off of the backline, you can handle that with a dervish in most of PvE. You might even be able to do it with a Paragon. But if how they do it is important, or if anything else they do is important, you'll see that having one or the other changes a lot of play.

I suspect you'll see the differences very quickly in PvP. And the way the two perform in those parts of PvE where the difference does matter is often dramatic.

Consider something I've said elsewhere is a problem of the design of a warrior - being adrenaline based puts them on a different up/down cycle from most other classes. They will tend to have full adrenaline when the others are low on energy, and vice versa. When pressure is heavy this can actually very important as a tool of success - the warrior can use the adrenaline to keep pressure off the others. The dervish by contrast will be hitting a down cycle at the same time as the rest of the team, running out of energy and having enchants wear off at the same point in time as the monk, mesmer, elementalist, and others are low... which means right when you need a 'tank' the most, the Dervish is just a girl in a pretty dress with an overgrown farming implement.

When I Hero / Hench I like to bring one of each - one warrior and one dervish. Their up / down cycles are opposed - one of them is going to be at its peak right as the other is in its valley. So I can get the most out of melee pressure by pairing them.

Wish I could get away with that with Monks and Ritualists...

Stormlord Alex · Dec 06, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Lightning hell beat me to it

although he slipped up on triple chop, that's new and perhaps along with dragon slash the best skill you mentioned. Still triple chop is just a pumped up cyclone axe. I used to trigger zealots fire with cyclone axe so forgive me if I remain unconvinced.

Disrupting chop is also a prophecies skill

Brawling headbutt is a deldrimor skill

Save yourself is a Kurzick skill

Which leaves:

agonizing chop is a conditional interrupt

Pulverizing smash is redundant and weak(do you know ne1 who uses it?)

Critical chop is great for Assassins with Warrior secondary...who like axe

and Crip slash is a 6 adrenaline cripple + bleed, hmmmm

sounds like warriors got a real shot in the arm huh?

I don't see any new skills that support your argument... Kid.

The ringing you hear isn't keys, it's the result of butting your head against the wall.

Bow out while you still can.

Look, people.
It's fairly plain to see that LockerLoad is completely clueless, and cannot be argued with (remember Ensign's sig, people!

).

FYI - Crit/Agonizing Chop's power does not lie in their interrupt, that's a bonus to the insane damage compression offered by timed attacks.

LockerLoad · Dec 07, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

OK now, let's review.

The OP felt his warrior seemed weaker now than before. I agreed with his perception and supported it with logical argument.

In summary I claimed that the addition of new and buffs to existing block skills left warriors missing in melee while the Assasin and Dervish classes overlap the warrior reducing it's utility.

Yum Magikarp and Alex totally ignore the issue in contention and tell me warriors are consistantly the most effective damage dealing class and better than Derv, as if either was ever a point of contention.

An equivalent statement would be that monks are the best healing class. True but irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Please stop attributing claims to me which I never made. It's juvenile and blatantly insincere.

Don't harp on about how the nerfs are necesary to balance the metagame as that isn't the point of the discussion either.

So, What makes warriors stronger now compared to when the OP stopped playing?

Surely it's not the nerf to armor absorption, or shield absorption. Perhaps the nerf to Executioners chop?

Try to stop being Warrior fanboys for just a moment and actually think about the question in a rational manner. Then if it's not too much trouble, respond in the same way if you can.

iridescentfyre · Dec 07, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

So, What makes warriors stronger now compared to when the OP stopped playing?

The OP was using a build that was fundamentally flawed in pretty much every way imaginable. If that's what you're basing your argument around, you're wrong. Someone else said that Warriors were stronger now than they previously were, so its not my job to defend that statement... but if you need proof that Warriors are capable of much more than a Dervish or Assassin is (regardless of insane blocking), you need only to check which melee class is used most often in top-level PvP. If you don't understand why said melee class is used most often, you're not in a position to be having this argument.

Aris the Accurate · Dec 07, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

I claimed that the addition of new and buffs to existing block skills left warriors missing in melee

which forced people to l2p better.

Quote:

the Assasin and Dervish classes overlap the warrior reducing it's utility.

I fail to see how a dervish or sin can match a shock evis in terms of utlity, and if you want another example look at the recent usage of shields up chains in gvg.

and btw their is nothing wrong with cripslash, it is easliy one of the best snares a sword warrior can get and it frees up a skill slot by allowing you to remove SA.

Warriors skills havnt become much stronger but their play style has grown more powerful.

Quote:

It's juvenile

Calling people kid shows nothing other then the fact that you wish to pick a fight which is in itself a juvenile act. All this will do is force this thread to be closed..which is were I think its going anyways =/